Note: episode transcripts are radio scripts - please keep that in mind as you come across notations and errors in the text.
[mux in]
Previously on Bear Brook, Season 2: A True Crime Story:
[Karen Carroll, Outline Tape] You told us that Jason had admitted moving the car and was involved somewhat.
[tape stop sound]
[Roland Lamy, Interrogation Tape] The truth. The essence of the truth. I have not seen the breaking point in you.
[tape stop sound]
[Karen Carroll, Interrogation Tape] If you put a knife – if you put a knife in that woman, I want to know.
[tape stop sound]
[Jack Carroll, Outline Tape] He stood up and he just said it was a bunch of bullcrap. And that anything that he had said wasn’t true.
[tape stop sound]
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…
It’s November 27, 1989. The Monday after Thanksgiving. Tony Pfaff lands at the airport in Manchester, New Hampshire.
Tony walks off the plane and waves hello to Detective Roland Lamy and the other officers who are waiting for him.
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Tony has no idea that just two days ago, on Saturday, Jason Carroll confessed on tape to murdering Sharon Johnson. Tony has no idea that while he was in the air, police taped a second confession from Jason.
[Neal Scott] Alright, from the top again, Jason. When were you first contacted?
[Jason Carroll] July 27, 1988.
[Neal Scott] To do what?
[Jason Carroll] Kill Sharon Johnson.
[Neal Scott] [David Eastman] By whom?
[Jason Carroll] Tony Pfaff.
And Tony has no idea that on both of those tapes, Jason says Tony is guilty, too.
When Tony got on the plane in North Carolina that morning, he thought he was coming to team up with detectives again. Just like he had several months earlier, when he wore a wire and tried to get Ken Johnson to admit to the murder.
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Detective Lamy and the other cops lead Tony outside to Lamy’s car. It’s November and there’s snow on the ground. Tony is wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
He sits in the front seat. And Lamy says, as a precaution, he’s going to read Tony his Miranda rights – you know, just since they’re going to be talking about the murder. Tony says he understands, it’s just a precaution.
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After about 15 minutes they pull into a construction site. The construction site where Sharon’s body was found.
Detective Lamy tells Tony, "There's someone here that has something to say to you.”
It’s Jason. He’s standing there in the construction site, surrounded by about a dozen cops. Police cruisers are parked all over.
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It’s at this moment that Tony must’ve realized - this trip to see the New Hampshire State Police was not going to be like that last one. Last time, Tony was one of the guys. This time, he’d walked right into a trap – a scene staged by Detective Lamy on the very spot where Sharon Johnson’s body was found.
That day, Lamy hoped he could turn one confession into two – and finally use that evidence to take down Ken Johnson.
This is Bear Brook, Season 2: A True Crime Story. I’m Jason Moon.
[mux up and out]
…
According to the police reports, Detective Lamy and Tony get out of the car and walk over to Jason.
Lamy stands in between Jason and Tony in case it gets physical. He tells them, “I don’t want this turning into a freak show.”
Detective Lamy then has Jason repeat his confession to Tony. He’s betting the surprise of being confronted by a co-conspirator confessing to the crime at the spot where Lamy says they committed crime, surrounded by a dozen cops – it will convince Tony the game is over.
It was the kind of scene that would make for the perfect climax of a TV cop show.
But it doesn’t go according to plan. Tony says he doesn’t even know who Jason is, even though they worked together at High-Tech. He says Jason is crazy.
Tony asks what’s going on? Lamy says if he wants to talk about it, he’ll have to come with him to the police station. Tony is standing in a snow-covered construction site in rural New Hampshire, wearing just shorts and a t-shirt, he was flown here on the state police’s dime, he has no car of his own, and no way to reach anyone else. He agrees, and gets back in the car with Lamy.
[mux in]
Once they get to the Bedford police station, Tony spends three hours in an interrogation room with Detective Lamy and other officers. And then Lamy’s partner turns on a tape recorder.
[Neal Scott] This is Sergeant Neal Scott, New Hampshire State Police speaking. The time is 1900 hours. The date is November 27, 1989. The following recorded conversations are that of Anthony Tony Pfaff. Present is Sergeant Roland Lamy of New Hampshire state police and myself, Neal Scott. Tony, are you aware that this is being recorded?
[Tony Pfaff] Yes.
[Neal Scott] Would you speak up, please?
[Tony Pfaf] Yes!
[Neal Scott] Thank you.
It’s taken detectives a lot of work to get there. But Tony now tells them he’s finally ready to make a confession.
[Roland Lamy] You have indicated to me, prior to us turning this tape on, that you are now ready to tell the whole truth so help you god about your involvement in the killing of Sharon Johnson on July 28, 1988. Is that correct?
[Tony Pfaff] Yes.
[mux post]
Tony begins to tell a new story about his involvement in Sharon’s murder. Tony says the story starts with a conversation between him and Ken one week before she was killed.
[Tony Pfaff] He asked me if I could help him figure out a way to kill his wife. And I thought–
[Roland Lamy] And her name is?
[Tony Pfaff] Sharon Johnson
[Roland Lamy] OK.
[Tony Pfaff] At first, I thought he was kidding. And I suggested a few ways, just playing along, and then he told me he wasn’t joking, he was serious.
[Roland Lamy] Mmhmm.
Tony says Ken offered him $10,000 to kill his wife. Tony says he thought about it for a day, then agreed to the job. Tony says he then reached out to Jason – and offered him half the money – $5,000 – to help him carry it out.
Tony says it was his idea for Jason to play the role of “Bob.” He says he and Jason met Sharon at the mall.
[Tony Pfaff] We met her in the mall. And we asked her to go outside – come outside with us.
[Roland Lamy] Where in the mall? //
[Tony Pfaff] In the middle of the mall by the food court, somewhere around there, I don’t remember nothing, I don’t…
[Roland Lamy] OK.
(pause)
The mood of Tony’s interrogation could not be more different than what happened with Jason and his mom. There’s no shouting on the tape. In fact, it’s so quiet you can hear what sounds like a clock ticking throughout the whole thing.
And Tony – I’m not sure what the right word is to describe his affect. Flat? Unremorseful? Resigned? Exhausted?
Tony can’t seem to remember all that much about the day of the murder. The interrogation is a halting, tedious process. But Lamy, who yelled at Jason to reach his breaking point as Jason sobbed, is patient… even gentle, as he coaxes Tony to keep talking. At one point, Lamy says to Tony, “don’t be ashamed to cry.”
[Tony Pfaff] Then we drove. I don’t remember the places we drove. Jason told you where we drove.
[Roland Lamy] Mmhmm.
[Tony Pfaff] And then… we went down… to uh… (mumbling) I don’t remember the road.
[Roland Lamy] Tell you what–
[Tony Pfaff] I don’t remember. It’s hard for me to remember things, alright?
[Roland Lamy] Well, do your best. This is very serious, as you know… (sigh) I mean, there has to be, you have to explain how it is that that site was chosen because Johnson shows up there and he has to know where it’s going to be. Who chooses that place and how did he get there?
[Tony Pfaff] He’s the one that chose it ‘cause I didn’t know where it was.
[Roland Lamy] How do you– you don’t just accidentally run into him. How do you people get out there?
(long pause)
[Roland Lamy] Come on, Tony.
(long pause)
Tony is not giving police the kind of detailed play-by-play they’re looking for. Still, he is confirming the broad strokes of Jason’s confession.
Tony says after they meet Sharon at the mall, they force her into her car. Then Tony says he holds Sharon at knifepoint and makes her drive to the construction site.
[Tony Pfaff] Anyway, we got there, she struggled, Jason drove a knife in her back, stabbed her again. I choked her. She fell to the ground. And I, I – her shirt was pulled off, but I didn’t pull it off. I don’t know how it got pulled off, but I didn’t pull it off.
[Roland Lamy] How many times did you stab her, truthfully? Truthfully, now, Tony. This is a one-time shot to tell the truth, ‘cause that’s what you want to be doing. You don’t have to have the exact number of times. I want to know how many times that you think you may have stabbed her.
[Tony Pfaff] A couple of times.
Tony tells police the knife used in the murder belonged to Lisa Johnson. Ken’s stepdaughter. The mother of Tony’s child. Tony says she might’ve known about the plot to kill Sharon, but can’t say for sure. Tony says he got the knife from Ken and then gave it to Jason.
That’s all a pretty significant difference from Jason’s confession, where he eventually says the knife was his and never mentions Lisa. Lamy, no doubt recognizing this discrepancy, asks Tony, “Were there two knives used or just one?” Tony says, “Just one.”
[Roland Lamy] Was Johnson there? Explain how – where’s Johnson?
[Tony Pfaff] Ken Johnson, he did show up. I don’t know where he came from but he was, I mean, I didn’t see which direction he came from, but he was there.
[Roland Lamy] OK and did he come before this began or after? Or during?
[Tony Pfaff] He must’ve been there, already, because he came out right after it was over.
[Roland Lamy] Oh, he came out after it was over?... OK…. OK, continue. Now, what was said? Was Sharon begging you to stop? Was she crying?
[Tony Pfaff] She was c– of course she was crying, she was in hysterics.
[Roland Lamy] Tell me things that she was saying.
[Tony Pfaff] Why are we doing this to her?
[Roland Lamy] What did you say?
[Tony Pfaff] I don’t remember.
[mux post]
That’s another difference from the story Jason told. Jason said Ken and Sharon had a whole argument before she was stabbed. And now Tony is saying Ken emerged from somewhere nearby only afterwards.
Tony says after they killed Sharon, he and Jason drove her green Subaru back to the mall and left it in the parking lot. Then he says they both drove in Jason’s truck to Ken’s house where he paid them the $10,000. At that point, Tony says he and Jason parted ways.
Near the end of the interrogation, Lamy uses a technique on Tony that he also used on Jason. He invokes the presence of a theoretical jury that will one day listen to the tape they’re making.
[Roland Lamy] I want you to explain to the jury, if you will, and I know it’s very difficult to do this, but I must ask you to express how you feel as a human being, as Tony Pfaff – how does Tony Pfaff feel about having participated in the murder of Sharon Johnson?
[Tony Pfaff] I feel bad, and I’m sorry it took place. And I wish it’d never even happened. (pause) And if there was any way I could switch places, I’d do it.
[mux out]
…
Tony’s taped interrogation finishes around 8 p.m. Tony landed at the airport at 3, so he’s spent five hours with the cops by this point. And it’s not over. Police keep talking to him that night, periodically, though they never turn on another tape recorder.
Two hours later, Tony changes his story. Now he says Lisa Johnson was involved in the murder. He says she was there and saw Sharon die.
Then, 40 minutes later, Tony tries to recant everything. He says none of it is true. Not even what he told Detective Lamy months ago about moving Sharon’s car as a favor for Ken.
It’s somewhere around 11 p.m. Finally, according to the police report, Tony says, “Look, everything I told you on the tape was the truth. I feel bad. I’m tired. That’s why I went backwards. Don’t bother asking me anything more because I don’t remember anything more.”
[mux in]
All this time Jason has been at the police station, too. He recorded that second taped confession while Tony was flying in. Then, after the showdown at the construction site, police also brought Jason back to the Bedford PD. For the rest of the day, Lamy has been bouncing back and forth between questioning Jason and Tony.
Around midnight, Tony and Jason are both arrested. Tony has been with the police for 9 hours this day. Jason, for about 12 hours. By the way, you can see a timeline of all the interrogations on our website bearbrookpodcast.com.
But Lamy is not done with Jason yet. He has one last scene to stage with him. This one – down in Rhode Island, with Ken Johnson.
[mux post]
The next morning, just after 10 a.m., police in Warren, Rhode Island arrive at the Country Inn Restaurant. Ken is apparently at work inside.
The Warren police chief told the newspapers, Ken showed “no surprise or shock whatsoever” at being arrested.
Ken is brought to the local police station. And not long after he gets there, Detective Lamy arrives from New Hampshire. He’s brought Jason with him.
[mux post]
Lamy brings Jason into the room where Ken is being held. According to Lamy’s police report, Ken stares at Jason.
Lamy then has Jason repeat his confession again to Ken. He gets as far as the part where he says he saw Ken at the construction site. At the mention of this, Ken flings his arms out in disgust and tells Lamy to get Jason out of his sight.
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Over a year after Sharon was murdered, Lamy’s investigation had produced two confessions and an alleged murder weapon – Jason’s pocket knife. And it all pointed to the original prime suspect, Ken, as the mastermind behind the plot to kill Sharon.
It was front page news. Tony Pfaff, Ken Johnson, and Jason Carroll were all charged with capital murder. At the time, the penalty was death.
Detective Roland Lamy had lived up to his reputation. He’d solved the case. He’d crafted the narrative about who killed Sharon Johson.
[mux up]
Thanks for listening to Bear Brook Season 2. This podcast took more than a year to report – and a lot of resources. One way to show how much you value local journalism and longform investigative reporting is by giving to New Hampshire Public Radio. It takes just a few minutes and makes a big difference. To give now, click the link in the show notes – and thanks.
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************************MIDROLL***************************
You’ve now heard the official narrative of Sharon Johnson’s murder. How it was put together out of a few clues and a tangle of changing and sometimes conflicting confessions from two 19-year-olds.
To recap, here’s what the police say happened:
Ken Johnson wanted his wife dead because he was deep in gambling debt and Sharon’s pension would cover that debt and then some. He hired Tony Pfaff, the 19-year-old who dated his daughter, to kill Sharon. Tony recruited his coworker Jason Carroll to help. The three of them used a story about a fictional “Bob” to lure Sharon to the mall. Tony and Jason kidnapped her there and brought her to a construction site where Ken was waiting. And then, Jason and Tony stabbed Sharon with Jason’s pocket knife and Ken and Tony strangled her.
If some of that sounds different than what Jason and Tony confessed to, it’s because it is. Jason made yet more changes to his confession during his final taped interrogation, including that Ken choked, but never stabbed Sharon.
But if the state was going to take these confessions to trial, they had to settle on a single narrative. Did Ken stab her or didn’t he? Was Lisa involved or wasn’t she? And so they made some storytelling choices. They made choices about when to use the details from one confession over another when those details conflicted. And they made choices about what statements were true or false when Jason and Tony gave multiple different answers to the same question. So some things got cut, like Ken stabbing Sharon himself or Lisa being involved.
And to be clear, as far as Lisa goes – there is no evidence besides Tony’s brief statement that she had anything to do with Sharon’s murder. Lisa wasn’t even living in New Hampshire at the time – she’d moved to Rhode Island a few months before Sharon’s murder. We reached out to Lisa but never heard back.
Together, those choices add up to the narrative the state still stands by to this day.
But of course, it was not the only version of the story to be told. The official narrative was challenged – just as soon as Jason Carroll got a lawyer.
[Jason Moon] Can you talk to me about your first introduction to the case? //
[Cliff Kinghorn] The first thing that happened was Jason’s mom came in to meet with me. // And I knew right away there was going to be a problem.
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This is retired judge and criminal defense attorney Cliff Kinghorn. He’s an ex-marine. Got a purple heart in Vietnam.
Until Cliff was appointed to represent Jason, no one outside law enforcement really knew what role Jason’s parents had played. How his mom Karen and his stepdad Jack allowed Jason to be questioned by police without an attorney for at least 13-and-a half hours over a four day period. How Karen Carroll actively and aggressively participated in one of Jason’s interrogations.
When Cliff learned what had happened, he was horrified. Then he took a meeting with Jason’s parents that stunned him even more.
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In Cliff Kinghorn’s office, Karen and Jack Carroll share a detail no one else knows about. Something allegedly left off the police reports. Something that would help explain why Karen and Jack did what they did.
Karen tells Cliff a deal for Jason’s cooperation has already been worked out with police.
[mux out]
As long as Jason testifies against Ken, Karen says Jason has been promised a very light sentence – something like 7 or 8 years at a federal prison where he could even get a college degree while inside.
Karen says she and Jason’s stepfather had been promised this by Detective Roland Lamy.
[Cliff Kinghorn] And I’m thinking to myself, “What la-la-land are we living in? That’s never going to happen.”
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Cliff and Jason’s parents start to argue.
[Cliff Kinghorn] Karen basically said to me, we’re going to do this my way. All kinds of promises have been made to him and I trust Roland Lamy explicitly and we got into kind of a heated discussion.
Karen and Jack Carroll actually described this meeting with Cliff in the “Outline Tape.” The conversation Karen and Jack recorded with Detective Lamy just 11 days after this meeting with Cliff. And Karen tells Lamy just how terribly the meeting went.
[Karen Carroll, Outline Tape] He really started in very hard on me. My being in law enforcement seemed to be quite an issue. How could I possibly sit there and let my son spill his guts and tell everything without consulting an attorney. // Whose side was I on? Was I on Jason’s side or was I on the police’s side?
[Cliff Kinghorn] I mean it was basically, “I know he needs a lawyer, I suppose, but I’m calling the shots, we’re calling the shots. We know what we’re doing and this is the way it’s going to be.” And I said, “I’m sorry Karen, but you need to understand something: I don’t represent you, I don’t represent your husband. We’re going to represent Jason and that’s our job.”
[Jack Carroll, Outline Tape] We walked out very upset. I don’t think we said three words together, to each other all the way home. // This was supposed to be our defense attorney for our son and we felt that he was going to hang him out to dry. // He was out for his own glory and we didn’t want that. We told him that Jason wanted to turn state’s evidence and he insisted not.
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The argument in Cliff Kinghorn’s office was an epic clash of worldviews. A cop and defense attorney. Each with fundamentally different understandings of how the criminal justice system works. Both believing their approach was in Jason’s best interest.
A little context here: Generally speaking, cops don’t have the authority to make promises of immunity – an offer like that can only come from a prosecutor. And it’s also risky for the police. A promise of immunity could render a suspect’s confession involuntary in the eyes of the court.
But it matters exactly what is said. A detective who makes an explicit promise of immunity – that’s usually not ok. But a detective who suggests that cooperation might lead to leniency? That’s not uncommon and it’s a legal gray area.
Detective Lamy, for his part, flatly denied ever making promises of any kind to Jason or his parents.
But the Carrolls would later testify to a jury that Lamy made the promise the morning after Jason’s first interrogation.
In that testimony, the Carrolls say immunity for Jason became their objective. And to make that happen, they needed to make sure he cooperated.
So later that same day when Karen is brought into the room during Jason’s second interrogation, and Detective Lamy is yelling at him that he’s not telling the truth, Karen said, it scared her. If Jason held something back, he wouldn’t get immunity. He needs to talk. He needs to tell them everything. For his own good.
[Karen Carroll, Interrogation Tape] These guys are going to help you! We’re not going to sit and jump on your ass and shoot you down!
[Jason Carroll, Interrogation Tape] But I feel like I’m getting jumped on my ass and shot down now!
[Karen Carroll, Interrogation Tape] We want the truth out of you! No one is going to be able to help you any more until you come forth with all of the information that they need!
Later in the interrogation, you can hear Karen tell her son, “You still have a chance to save your ass. My dear, I don’t want to see you go to prison.”
[Karen Carroll, Interrogation Tape] The longer you hold off telling the truth –
[Roland Lamy, Interrogation Tape] Come on…
[Karen Carroll, Interrogation Tape] – the harder it’s going to be and the worse it’s going to be on yourself. You still have a chance to save your ass. My dear, I don’t want to see you go to prison.
Jason says, “I don’t want to go to prison either, Ma.”
[Jason Carroll, Interrogation Tape] I don’t want to go to prison either, Ma.
[Karen Carroll, Interrogation Tape] Then tell us every goddamn thing you know.
Here’s what Karen told me about what she was thinking during Jason’s interrogation.
[Karen Carroll] What was going through my mind was, if Jason had something to tell them then he was going to tell them. But it was that word “immunity” rolling around in my head. I’m not thinking that’s got to come from the AG’s Office. I’m just thinking, “This is my son. They’re trying to pin this murder on him.” And the word “immunity” is rolling around in my head.
As Jason’s confession changes and becomes more and more incriminating, the Carrolls say Lamy’s promise changes, too. From full immunity to a short prison sentence. Still, to Karen and Jack, it felt like the best option for Jason who otherwise faced the death penalty.
When Jason’s attorney Cliff Kinghorn told the Carrolls that Lamy’s promises were a fantasy, they simply didn’t believe that. Karen trusted Lamy. A fellow police officer. The one many considered the best.
And so for weeks after that meeting, Karen continued to collude with Detective Lamy. She actively worked to undermine Jason’s attorneys.
[mux in]
Karen would talk to Jason in jail, learn what his attorneys were telling him, then she’d call Detective Lamy and relay that information to him.
She even convinced Jason to write a letter in jail to the prosecutors. In the letter, Jason says he wants to testify for the state, but his attorneys weren’t letting him. Karen dictated the letter to Jason over the phone. With the help of Lamy, Karen delivered the letter by hand to the Attorney General’s office – to the lawyers who were prosecuting her son.
[mux post]
And then, there’s the “Outline Tape.”
[Roland Lamy, Outline Tape] Today we have prepared an outline on a board in a conference room by which the outline will be utilized to present this taped statement.
Lamy hoped the tape would undermine any potential argument from Jason’s attorneys that the confessions were coerced. And Karen and Jack Carroll helped make it.
They recorded it with police in December of 1989, just weeks after Jason’s arrest and 11 days after the Carrolls’ big fight with Jason’s lawyer.
[Roland Lamy, Outline Tape] You understand that the reason we’ve made this tape today is because we know by other forces and their activity that in the long road ahead, there are going to be continued and repeated attacks // that the police coerced, intimidated, promised, threatened, made deals with Jason at any time during the confession-taking or the confession-decision-making process.
Detective Lamy knew the voluntariness of Jason’s confessions would be an issue. (Possibly from the intel he was getting from Karen about the legal strategy of Jason’s lawyers). And so to protect his investigation, Lamy got Jack and Karen Carroll on record, saying that the police made no promises or threats to Jason. The thing Cliff and Karen would later say the whole fight at his office was about – Karen tells Lamy, it never happened. Jack tells Lamy in the “Outline Tape” a promise to Jason wasn’t so much as insinuated. And Karen agrees that when she took part in Jason’s second interrogation, she was acting as Jason’s mother – not as a police officer.
These were all statements that would later help the state fight off challenges by Jason’s lawyers to the validity of his confession.
[mux out]
For Lamy, the “Outline Tape” was a rare instance of two people putting their personal and familial relationships aside in the interest of justice.
[Roland Lamy, Outline Tape] I must tell you that it’s extremely rewarding to sit here and listen to two parents who are as conscientious and as fair in their judgment and appraisal of this entire situation as you two have been and we do appreciate that.
For people who believe Jason is innocent, the “Outline Tape” is tragic. Here are Jason’s parents — the people supposed to protect him – helping police put the finishing touches on his wrongful conviction.
Maybe most damning of all, from this point of view, is how Karen and Jack both describe Jason calling them from jail and again trying to tell them he didn’t do it. To which his parents basically say, knock it off.
[Karen Carroll, Outline Tape] He went on to tell us that he wasn’t guilty. And again his father and I stressed to him the importance of telling the truth.
[mux in]
[Jack Carroll, Outline Tape] He tried to compromise with the truth. He says, “Well, what would happen if I am really innocent of this and I just go and try to make a deal on that statement?” And he says, “Down the road a year or two, say the state investigators find the real man who did this, what would they do then?” And we tried to explain that to him. At that point, we both knew that he was just pussy-footing around.
[mux post]
[Jack Carroll, Outline Tape] It’s my opinion – I’m not going to speak for my wife, but it’s my opinion that the boy is guilty.
[Roland Lamy, Outline Tape] Right.
[Jack Carroll, Outline Tape] And I’ve known him for 19, 20 years now. And it’s my – he is guilty and he needs to be punished.
[mux post]
People in Jason’s camp today have a lot to say about what his parents did. Most of the criticism is directed at Karen because of her role in the interrogation.
[Debbie Dutra] She was a cop. She of all people knows better. My children are 30 and 26. If they were ever hauled off to a police department, the first thing I would say is, “Lawyer up.” Done.
[Debbie Richer] I’ve told Jason this, there’s a part of me that doesn’t have a whole lot of respect for his mom. // He had nobody on his side to protect him. Where were his protectors?
[mux out]
For Jason, the feelings are more complicated.
[Jason Carroll] I mean, I still talk to her… but it’s not quite the same, nor will it ever be.
Jason says he and his mom have never really been able to talk about what happened, freely. Their only contact since the arrest has been in jail and prison visiting rooms with guards watching. Or on prison phones where they could be listening. Not the best environment for a painful heart-to-heart.
[Jason Carroll] The story and the saga is not done between her and I. It’s far from it. For now, it’s just on hold. // What’s going to happen is, if I walk out of here, her and I are going to sit down and have a long, long talk. And she’s probably not going to like some of the things I got to say.
Jack Carroll died in 2006. Karen, for her part, now acknowledges the role she played and deeply regrets it.
But she lays much of the blame at the feet of Detective Roland Lamy.
[Karen Carroll] I was not only a police officer, but I was a mother, you know? And mothers will do whatever they have to do to try to protect their kids. // And things affect everybody differently. And I think he just took full advantage of… my noodle just slipped off the plate into the abyss.
[mux in]
Cliff Kinghorn, Jason’s lawyer who argued with Karen that day in his office, who once questioned whose side Karen was on, today says this was not her fault.
[Cliff Kinghorn] You know, Karen helped them, but in my heart I always thought she felt she was doing the right thing for Jason. And // I mean, Roland knew what he was doing. And he realized he had someone that had a great deal of influence on her son that he could use to get what he wanted. // I never doubted for a minute that she was made promises. Lamy made promises to her that he could never possibly keep.
[mux out]
About seven weeks after the Carrolls had their blow-up with Cliff, the reality of Jason’s situation takes hold. Lamy’s alleged promises of leniency do not come to pass. The state of New Hampshire indicts Jason on charges of capital murder. Lamy and the prosecutors Karen had put her trust in are now trying to execute her son.
Meanwhile Jason is back to denying any involvement in the murder – a position he will maintain for the next 34 years. Jason refuses to testify against Ken or Tony.
Karen and Jack start to cooperate with Jason’s attorneys. Eventually, they will testify several times as witnesses for the defense.
On the stand, they will say that the “Outline Tape” was a huge lie, orchestrated and scripted by Detective Lamy. They will beg a judge and jury, sometimes through tears, to believe them that Detective Lamy promised their son immunity.
But it won’t work. The prosecutor will simply point out that the Carrolls are admitting they are willing to lie if they think it will help Jason. And the prosecutor will say, that’s exactly where they’re doing now.
Jack and Karen Carroll will be too late to stop what they helped start. Jason Carroll will be convicted of murder.
[Karen Carroll] I am like, why did I let this happen? Why wasn’t I stronger? Why couldn’t I see what he was doing? Why, why, why, why?
[mux post]
Coming up – in the second half of A True Crime Story.
[unidentified voice] I was just reading and laying out the case. // I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know what wasn't right.
[Jason Moon] And what did you think it was leading to? Like, did you have an objective in mind as you were doing this?
[unidentified voice] The truth.
[unidentified voice] That’s a big accusation for someone to come out and admit that they did something when they didn’t do it.
[unidentified voice] I thought he was guilty. I thought there was no question about whether he was guilty or not.
[unidentified voice] I mean one of the best things that came out of Pfaff’s mouth was when they were filming him coming out of the police station in the morning // and they were like, “Do you have anything to say?” or something, and he says, “Yeah: not guilty.”
[unidentified voice] When they started to suggest that this is the only way that this is going to work, // your mind says, “Well, OK you have to trust them.” // You believe that you’re helping your accusers help you.
[unidentified voice] People have a really, really hard time reconciling with the fact that someone would confess to something that they didn’t do. And they assume that if they say that they did it, it’s because they actually did it.
A True Crime Story is reported and produced by me, Jason Moon.
It’s edited by Katie Colaneri.
Additional reporting and research by Paul Cuno-Booth.
Editing help from Lauren Chooljian, Daniela Allee, Sara Plourde, Taylor Quimby, Mara Hoplamazian, and Todd Bookman.
Our News Director is Dan Barrick. Our Director of Podcasts is Rebecca Lavoie.
Fact-checking by Dania Suleman.
Sara Plourde created our original artwork, as well as our website, bearbrookpodcast.com.
Photos and videos by Gaby Lozada.
Original music for the series was created by me, Jason Moon.
Bear Brook is a production of the Document team at New Hampshire Public Radio.